We seem to be at a turning point in our country's history.

Or, at the very least, we live in very strange and frightening times.

Former President Talk about suspending the constitution and Prosecute your enemies is once again knocking on the White House door, with the sitting president facing unprecedented calls from within his own party for him to give up reelection after his worst debate performance ever.

Times columnists Mark Z. Barabac and Anita Chhabria, who both fear a return to the Trump administration, agree on this point. Really The most important presidential election any living human has ever seen. It's a story we hear every four years.

But after his performance at a Thursday night press conference that went viral around the world, people are divided on whether Joe Biden should stay or drop out as the Democratic nominee. Here, they debate it head-on.

Balabac: Wow. Biden's momentum has plummeted after just a few chilling minutes on the debate stage. But maybe it shouldn't be surprising. Adam B. Schiff, the Burbank congressman and likely to become California's next senator, summed it up nicely on “Meet the Press” last weekend:

“Joe Biden is running against criminals. This race can't be close,” Schiff said. “The only reason it's close is because of the age of the president.”

The debate was supposed to allay concerns about Biden's mental and physical vitality. Of course, his performance did just the opposite. Biden couldn't have looked worse if he'd appeared onstage with a blanket, a pillow and a glass of warm milk and then fallen asleep.

Chhabria: The number one response I hear from average Democrats is that it's brutal to watch Biden falter. Now we're stuck in a political quagmire, trying to decide whether we're watching a disturbing but survivable decline or a death-throes campaign.

It may seem silly in some ways, but the turning point for me was George Clooney's New York Times Op-Ed Clooney called on Biden to step aside on Wednesday. Not that he's star-struck, Clooney did what the entire Democratic Party was afraid to do: ask Biden to tell him what it was like in front of him. Clooney made it clear that what we saw on the debate stage was really what Biden was like as a person.

not good.

I am as concerned as anyone about Biden's mental acuity. But I don't think the Democrats are being honest. If they really believe, like Clooney, that Biden is not fit to be a presidential candidate, doesn't that mean he's not fit for the presidency? How do you interpret that?

Balabac: Hmm. Isn't Clooney one of the “elites” Biden mocked, resisting calls to step down after years of happily basking in their glow and sucking up every last penny their Hollywood benefactors sent him?

As you point out, there is a difference. Can Biden function as president? He's doing a good job, and probably could keep it going from 8am to 4pm, with the help of his aides and those around him. (Interestingly, this is an argument I've heard many times from supporters of Donald Trump: they may question his judgment and his social media harassment, but they expect smart and capable people to support him.)

I think the better question is whether Biden can win in November and save the country from the threat of an unleashed Trump, or, even more frightening, whether he can save the country from a situation where Trump is in the White House, his minions are running Congress, a compliant Supreme Court is dismantling all the guardrails that would have restrained a vengeful president, and Republicans are in total control of Washington.

At this point, I don't think Biden can do that.

you?

Chhabria: I don't know if he can win, but people like Joe, even if he was near dementia, and I don't know if any other Democrat is in a better position to win than him.

There is an unbridled, almost hysterical, feeling of floating in the Democratic Party: the idea that if the party could hold a mini-primary beauty contest, some glorious winner would emerge as the savior.

Democrats will vote for a candidate, maybe Mayor Max III, a golden retriever who governs Idyllwild, but it's independents and voters in undecided battleground states who will decide the outcome of this race.

Show me a candidate who can appeal in four months to voters who have not been shaken by Trump's lies, abuses of power, and beliefs for years and who have not yet understood the threat to democracy he represents. If Biden is truly to be replaced among the Democratic nominees (and I believe that is still to be determined), Harris is the only reasonable choice. And it is a desperate, desperate reasonable choice.

What do you think?

Balabac: I agree. It's Harris or bust.

I've always thought of her as the leading candidate to succeed Biden if that were to happen, which would be roughly in line with the pattern of political succession over the past few decades, and the idea of ​​not having the first black woman as vice president of a party founded on black women always seemed impossible to me.

As you suggest, this idea that a unified candidate will emerge, the clouds will clear, and a heavenly choir will sing out loud, rallying Democrats together to defeat the evil MAGA king is also fanciful. We can fantasize about a noble exchange of ideas, and there will be something to be said for it if it happens. But does the party really want to be torn apart by fraternal infighting over Gaza, the Green New Deal, immigration, and the myriad other issues that divide Democrats, only to then put down its swords and unite after only a few months?

You're absolutely right that what holds Democrats together is a fundamental fear and loathing of Trump. Harris has the advantage of running on the success of the Biden administration, and of course trying to excuse its failures, but the problems of gerontocracy don't weigh heavily on her candidacy.

At 59, she turns the age issue on its head: Suddenly, Trump, 78, has to look after his own physical and mental health.

Chhabria: I agree with all of those things, but I’m not sure I can get to Harris yet. Joe is running out of time. The Democratic National Convention begins in about four weeks, with the formal nomination expected to take place before then.

And despite the Trump/Harris gaffe, I thought his NATO press conference was powerful, but I don't think he'll listen to his critics after that. He has that Joe flash that gets people talking, his deep knowledge of foreign affairs, and one-liners that I loved: “Control the guns, don't control the women.”

But a Harris presidential candidate would be concerned about the kind of racism and sexism that plagued Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton — or a combination of both — and that she didn't campaign very well in 2020, not to mention her awkwardness and inability to connect with voters.

While I am concerned about the first-hand reports of Joe's mental fragility, I still think we need to be prepared for him to remain in office. I agree that Biden has great people around him, but I also resent the fact that they, like Clooney, routinely saw the president's inconsistencies and didn't speak up.

I think the fallout here goes beyond Joe losing support. I think the Democratic Party loses credibility every day this situation continues. In that sense, there may be some benefit to keeping quiet and supporting Biden to keep the party from ceding the advantage to Trump. Or, if Harris is the solution, we may as well wait until after November to debate the point.

Or will they flip the tables and go for the Harris-Biden combination? He might not even notice.

This is too crazy for me to speculate on, do you dare make a prediction?

Balabac: So much for that. Democrats and other Biden supporters might as well subject themselves to four months of constant suspense if they are going to support a faltering president. He can have 100+ perfect days in a row between now and the November 5th election, plus a few more not-so-terrible press conferences. Manly and energetic! But Biden will likely hand the election to Trump with one ill-timed brain stall or fall.

It's like watching a shivering 81-year-old man walking on thin ice while balancing a beaker of nitroglycerin on his head: He may get through safely, but he'll be in danger all the while.

And if he stumbles, woe to us all.